#59 How Disability Affects Math Learning with Dr. Paul Nolting

If you are a parent or teacher of a child with a disability, and you believe that college math could become a real issue, you will want to listen to Dr. Nolting explain the subtests and learning disability scores of an adult psychoeducational SLD evaluation. He shares the purpose and reason for specific subtests, and how those results can affect college math accommodations.  Dr. Nolting also explains how that same documentation can be used if your child needs a math course substitution in college, and the results you can generally expect.

SHAREABLE Episode link for #59 How Disability Affects Math Learning with Dr. Paul Nolting

Academic Success Press with Dr. Nolting's Winning at Math and Mathematics and Disability Handbook 

Academic Success website for all Dr. Nolting's resources

Reach out to p.nolting.phd@gmail.com for his free list of apps

Free brief ebook Insights from a College Disability Specialist from Mickie Teaches.

Limited Time Sale on my course College & Disabilities: 9 Changes from High School Every Parent Should Know
 

Transcript

Mickie  0:00  
Have you ever wondered what the LD evaluation scores really tell you about your child's disability? Do you realize that there are additional accommodations for math that you probably never even thought about asking for? Did you know your college can provide course substitutions for your child if he or she has a math disability? Today's episode is a real eye opener, you are going to have a chance to learn a lot about math and disabilities documentation and accommodations for your child that's heading to college with a math disability. Dr. Paul Nolting, a national expert in math and disabilities is going to share some really specific information about disabilities, and how they impact your child's ability to learn math. So be ready for some new information that may come as a surprise to you and may help to explain some of your child's options once they had to college. today's podcast will focus on specific learning disabilities. But Dr. Nolting will also share some insights about traumatic brain injuries and disabilities as well. And he'll touch on some other disabilities as they relate to math and give you a lot of information about how the accommodations that you get in college are linked to the documentation that you can provide for your student with a disability. So welcome to Episode 59 "How Disability Affects Math Learning" with Dr. Paul Nolting on College, Disabilities, and Success with Mickie Hayes. The opinions in this podcast are my own, please reach out to your college physician or legal services for additional information.

Mickie  1:50  
Dr. Nolting Paul, Hi. It's nice to talk to you. Again. I'd like to give people just a little bit of your background before we start for those people who missed it before. 

Paul  2:00  
I first are started working with students in math that were not successful. And like our last podcast, we went over the study skills strategies, which helped a lot of people then had another group of people who even with the study skills didn't do that. Well. So then I started doing some testing. I actually took a class from Dr. Woodcock, the Woodcock Johnson start testing and figured out most of them's students had a disability. And if we could this figure out how to help them with their disability. And given the study skills, a lot of them passed. I've done about 100 colleges on this subject I've worked with personally with students for years. This recently I was the guest speaker for the Florida I had Association speaking on math and disabilities, and the New England ahead, association focusing on math disabilities, I've added revised my math and disability handbook that has a lot of information we're going to talk about. So what I want to do today basically is focusing on math disabilities, how they affect math learning, and then we'll look at SLD or LD.

Mickie  3:07  
Very good. I'm looking forward to this because as I was preparing for this, there's a whole lot of information in here that I know the general population is unaware of. So thank you, again, for taking the time to do this today. Can you talk about the definitions of math and the related disabilities that go along with it?

Paul  3:26  
Sometimes, I guess confusing, because they're just not one definition. The first definition is a calculator, which means you can't write numbers, you can't read numbers, you really can't do anything. The next one is dyscalculia. This one a lot of people hear about, but mainly that is the one that affects this arithmetic and can't do arithmetic problems actually can't learn how to factor learn how to do fractions and decimals and all that. And that's been around for years. Now, as I was doing my research and helping students I had students who had no problem with arithmetic, no problem with any of that, like they made A's in it. But soon as they hit algebra, then they basically just kind of fell apart and 2000 I actually coined the word dis algebra area. And this algebra area is students who have average to above average IQ, they master calculations, but can't master algebra. That's the main thing and then you get into the specific learning disorder which is the damn s five code which basically says has problems with number sense memorization arithmetic, fluency, math, reasoning, Cetera cetera. That's one. Then we had dyslexia, which is not a math disability, but most of us know that is you reverse the numbers, right versus the letters. And I had students that are dyslexic, and they were failing math. And when once we figured that out, we knew how to compensate that and then this graph Yeah, that's bad handwriting. And that's actually what I have. And basically, it's like chicken scratch and they can't keep concentrate to cetera cetera those affect math learning, too. So those are the main ones. ones that we want to look at and discuss later on. But I'm gonna get more specifically into something else. Now, what I'm going to do is first talk about some general characteristics of learning disabilities in math, then I'm going to go into different disabilities, how it affects math. Well, the first thing we notice, and this is going to be Elementary School, and this is where it shows up a lot. until middle school, what we look at is they can't remember the multiplication tables and facts, they reverse numbers, you know, like every five to 54, that sort of thing. And that's up the idea of a positive and in a multiplication sign, Miss copy work from the board, when you start looking at problems, they can do maybe a one step problem, it can't do to skip problems, inability to understand abstract concepts. So if I gave you a formula, like a times b plus c equals A times B times A times C, they wouldn't understand what that meant problems recalling math concepts, like I talked about poor maths study skills, demonstrates knowledge, actually in the classroom, but can't do the tests. I've seen a lot of that a lot of people complain about that. Yeah, I mean, that that gets into study skills and disability issues. Here's an interesting one, I have students that couldn't pass elementary algebra or any intermediate algebra, but we'll put them in topics in math, statistics, liberal arts, which are higher, they passed really took me a while to figure that out. And the main reason is, those other ones didn't require pure abstract reasoning what algebra does, so if there were more abstract reasoning in the future, we just skip those classes and put them in. And, of course, the most common one is those well, and everything but math. So that's it. That's like the specific learning disability characteristics. Now with ADHD students, that is the second most prominent group now SLD is still number one, ADHD, it's this number two, and it's not considered a math disability. But here's some characteristics you got to look for if your son or daughter, husband, wife has ADHD, you'll catch some of these real quick. The first one is difficulty concentrating in class, they get distracted and problems with recall short term memory and working memory. They can't put things together problems with executive function. Other words, they can't do two or three things at one time, or they get distracted. And one of the main things I learned about the ADHD comorbidity with other disabilities, so I'll do an anxiety.

Mickie  7:22  
Oh, absolutely, absolutely. I've seen a lot of the comorbid situations with SLD and ADHD, and a lot of confusion on the students part and the parents part about those two terms. And they get used interchangeably, and they're very different. So what are you seeing on the statistics? Now I'm seeing about 40% of the combination, but you're seeing 50 of the combination between SLD and ADHD? Yes, that half of them. Wow, that's pretty high. When when students are dealing with what I call a double whammy, the SLD characteristics are trying to keep straight in the brain. And then the ADHD is a distraction, they have start all over that makes it tough, makes it really tough. It really

Paul  8:02  
does. Look at the next area of your downloads is math and TBI is traumatic brain injuries. And that one is very complicated, because most of the times it really affects what we call the short term working memory and abstract reasoning. I had vets that I've worked with that new algebra before the left had an IED blow up, you know, while they're in their Humvee, and they came back, they had almost all the all the math gone. So that's Wow. But that, wow, that's very frustrating. Some of them. Some of them we didn't have to be honest. So in the future times we're going to talk about is autism and other broadcast and language impairments, characteristics and another broadcast and intellectual disabilities, which is the real big one coming up now in another broadcast. But what we should be looking at now is that What should parents we're looking at if you're SLD, because we're gonna go more into SLD. Right now, specific learning disabilities and the big characteristics of SLD. We already discussed, they should be looking at either the disability group or disability characteristics or our processing deficits. And when we start looking at all those because there's an idea so when you get your report back and psychosexual report back your main

Mickie  9:18  
that would be excuse me, that would be the report that comes with having an updated Learning Disability Evaluation, correct, because I want to make sure that people understand this, a lot of parents because their kids were identified very young and the K 12 system moves them through without a complete psychological evaluation update. They get into a situation with a high school student where they don't have that updated psychological evaluation and some colleges will accept them for accommodations with the IEP s but if a parent really wants to know what is happening specifically, then they have to have an updated psychological evaluation with adult norms. And so the data that you're talking about now would be the data that the parent gets in the conversations that the parent has with a psychologist who did the neuro psych eval or evaluation, psychological evaluation. So I just wanted to make sure parents are aware of that. So if you are a parent, in this situation, listen very closely to what Paul has to say. Because when you get an updated evaluation done, this information will guide you through that conversation with the person who did the evaluation, correct, Paul,

Paul  10:35  
that is correct. I've had many students come in with IEPs, and five oh fours, and with no psych psych, we call psycho educational evaluation programs, and now becomes a guessing game of what's going on. So right, right, for guessing game is not good, we wouldn't know specificly. Sometimes the colleges may do the additional testing a lot of times they won't. But when we start looking at how it affects learning, SLD is so broad, I have some students with SLD that only have visual processing speed problems, which I'll talk about in a few minutes. And we will culminate that in they'll get through math very effectively, I have other ones. And this is what you should be writing down and remembering that the three major categories that affect math learning that are hard to apply accommodations, is the short term working memory area, which we'll talk about in a minute, the long term memory, we'll talk about that too. And the most dangerous one is the fluid reasoning. And I'm gonna go

Mickie  11:35  
through I remember you telling me that years ago about the fluid reasoning and how challenging that was for an individual with a disability,

Paul  11:43  
right? It is challenging, I'm gonna go through a couple of these. And these are based on the Woodcock, the auditory processing deficits, if it comes up on your psycho educational evaluation really doesn't affect math, that is mean that your death that means you can't process information and hear words in general. So that one, we compensate for that one. The cognitive processing speed I just talked about. This one is highly correlated with maths success, says how fast you read numbers. How fast can you read the problems? How fast can you do your homework in a test to math instructors. And of course, they're scoring 9090 90% 95 percentile success, because that's their, their area where I giving it to my developmental students, and they're scoring below 25 percentile. But again, this is processing speed. And that can be compensated to because that's why we got notetakers. This will be tape recorders, etc, etc. The visual processing deficit, that's dyslexia, they reverse numbers, first images, they can't write problems down. And the saddest cases they had. And these are the students that wrote the problem down incorrectly off the board solve the correctly, and we're told the rule wrong.

Mickie  13:00  
I ran into that with a seventh grader, very early on in my career, that he would constantly score 40% out of 10 questions and constantly and I knew he knew what he was doing. And when I looked at them really closely, he would multiply a three digit times a two digit, and in every case, the two digit number was flipped. So if he were multiplying it by 54, he would write it down as 45. And then when he did it, 45 was 100%. Correct. But it didn't show up. Correct in the answers. Yeah. Yeah,

Paul  13:32  
that is, that's why we need what we call almost like a test proof reader, somebody who's actually watching them what they're writing down and doing, and we do that in college. So let's get the right problem. Correct. And if they get it wrong, then that's okay.

Mickie  13:47  
Or not okay, right. Okay. Well,

Paul  13:50  
it's not the short term working memory, this is the one that's becoming really popular today, that is your RAM, how much RAM you have in your head? How many things can you do at once, if I'm getting ready to do solve two equations? I gotta remember the facts, multiplication tables, factoring, I have to remember the rules. Can I do that all at once. And that's a two way street. But it means is that if I'm sitting in the classroom, if I have good short term working memory, I can process everything at the same time. If I had poor short term working memory, halfway through the problem, I'm lost, I don't get it. Right, right. So then that becomes an input problem, because inputted incorrectly into the brain. Now, main thing we focus on this one is taking the test. But I take a test, I gotta pull out all the rules. I gotta pull out the multiplication tables, the concepts and put them all together to solve the problem. If I only have, you know, minimal RAM in my head, I can't do that. So definitely get into calculators and things. So that's that's one, the long term storage and retrieval. Most people don't even know what that is. cuz that's how fast the information goes from you seen it to your brain and how fast it goes out? It's like, Is your mind have a two lane highway or a six lane highway? And can you go 40 miles an hour or 72. And that is that may affect math, it may not, but we can compensate for that. The next one is the comprehension and knowledge, which is long term memory. And you will know, and most people consider long term memories, the problem with workflow cavalry in English, but its long term memory is the problem that they cannot pull out the multiplication tables, they cannot pull out all the formulas, they cannot pull pull out the binomial distribution, they can't pull it out. It's It's It's was in there. But they lost it

Mickie  15:50  
was in there. It's lost in the file somewhere. Yes, it's lost. Yeah.

Paul  15:54  
So that's when we give facts sheets and formula sheets. That's when we give accommodations. For the working memory, we always give a calculator. So that's important. I've seen students that had poor long term memory. But when we gave him the formula, and we didn't tell what the follower was, we gave him the form they go, Oh, I know. That is

Mickie  16:17  
good. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. In fact,

Paul  16:20  
one of my students, we had gave me this comedy commendations to him, he passed his math, and he's now working for Boeing calculating turbine speed, you know, so this is, this is for real. Now, the one that really gets us and we talked about this earlier a little bit is the fluid reasonability, your ability to understand information and process it without words, math instructors are great at this, they can look at the formulas, they can look at the information and process it. The fluid reasoning is the number one problem students have in math that we cannot fix. Now, I'm using fixing a broad term, other words, that really no accommodations. So if I see a student with a fluid memory processing deficit, I put into action know is going to be very difficult for them to pass some of the algebra classes. However, again, we have skipped the algebra, put it into test statistics, liberal arts and topics, finite math, etc, etc. It is not algebra based, and they passed MB. And don't think about fluid reasoning as somebody with a low IQ. I've had people both 3.5 GPAs, and college 3.9 GPAs. And college 130. IQ, you know, I had fluid. So that one is the probably dominant one. That is like, if I make it out, show you how to do a math problem today, and you got it. And then we went back and try to do it again. You don't understand anything that we did yesterday. They don't do it again, you don't understand? And then we did yesterday. So that one's a real tough one. Yeah, yeah. When you start looking at accommodations, the first three, the auditory processing, the cognitive speed, visual processing, processing, long term storage and retrieval. They're pretty easy to accommodate. There's what we call input, input, beginning like your blind or death, and actually, blind students taught in California. I mean, that that's it. But again, when you get into that short term working memory, that comprehension, knowledge, fluid reasoning, those are the ones are the most difficult to give accommodations for. And usually, I'll be honest, these are the ones that if you had a lot of difficulty in, that they sometimes will give course substitutions for.

Mickie  18:40  
Right. And can you take a minute to talk about core substitutions? I think a lot of people don't realize they even exist. And that that is an option that they can explore. The things that you're talking about today, in that psych eval, the psychological evaluation, are important to understand if you are going to request a course substitution, so that you can explain to somebody else just exactly what's happening. Whether you're an educator, or whether you're a parent.

Paul  19:10  
Oh, yeah, I mean, I've been on the course substitution committees, I was the expert, you have to have one, I can go exactly what's going to happen, because some of the materials I've written were used in the Office of Civil Rights Cases, of course, substitutions. Here's the deal about course substitutions. One thing do they have to grant them or not? That depends on what is the issue at hand? What process and deficit to the student try, didn't try, et cetera, cetera. But here's the real rules. You ready? I always get this question. When can you apply for recourse substitution? And the answer as soon as you're accepted to the university or college,

Mickie  19:46  
and that's different than how it used to be

Paul  19:49  
correct. Now, I'm not going to say they're going to grant it and I'll show you what's going to happen. But yeah, as soon as you are accepted, you can apply and what happens when they start looking In at your cycle, educational reports, and information, there's three different areas that they look for. And this is right out of the OCR case, which I'll cite from San Antonio, California, the first area is that the disability is so insurmountable that they are not going to learn math. So we're not going to put them in it. And we're going to grant it, these are very rare, may imagine they are already I was only involved with one when I wrote the report, and a major university in Florida. They looked at it, and they totally agreed, because I said, the student received every combination possible in high school, and basically made DS and unfortunately, ds and there are gifts to the point that credit, so I'm not going to get into that. And when they started seeing all the reports, she was a communication major. And her area, her major area consultant at that time, the department chair said she doesn't need math, you gave her some more education courses, music courses, that's one. The second one is the gray area. That is we don't know, we don't know if they can pass math or not. Okay, so we're going to have you take him, and you can take the course with all the accommodations possible. And that gets interesting. And I'll come back to that one, but all the combinations that are needed that are appropriate. Now, one thing I gotta say right now, a lot of combinations that are given a high school are not appropriate in college.

Mickie  21:30  
Absolutely. And a lot of parents don't understand that they don't realize that, that goes down to fundamental philosophy, where high school is accommodating for success. And college is accommodating for equal access.

Paul  21:43  
Yeah, and there's two different laws, that idea what's in high school, and five before ADA college, so you may not get that. So now you try the course, you had all the appropriate accommodations that you're allowed, and you failed, or didn't pass or withdrew or whatever. Okay. So now becomes a question. Do we have to take it again? According to these court cases? The answer is no, no, no. Okay. I've had students that I want to try it again. I said, yes.

Mickie  22:14  
Yeah, exactly. You have disputed some students? Yes.

Paul  22:18  
Yeah, we try it. The other exception is they brought in a different report that gave him more accommodations, then I'll go, yep, we'll give you a word combinations and try it. And the funny thing about that one is it also said that you cannot be punished for that other words, let's say you got an F, you got to get the f off the record, and change it to a w. because we didn't know I'm not going to punish you for trying that sort of thing. Right? Right. The third area is you're learning disabilities say right now, processing deficits are not really associated with math, like auditory processing, or we can compensate them almost totally like visual processes be visual processing, sure, which discrimination. So we're not gonna give you a course substitutions, no matter what. So that's the three areas again, it's one is that you have enough data saying that it's impossible for you to pass math, right. The second one is gray area, you're going to try it with everything with the study skills, everything. And the second one, the most common way they say, we're not going to grant a course substitution is lack of effort of the student, they're going to go, did you go to class? Did you go to tutoring? You know, did you get help? How many hours? Did you study that sort of thing? And that's the most common one. But I usually do an educational plan, get that set up? And then have the instructor come in and go, yep, they try it all the time, but they just can't get it. Third area is your learning disability say right now, processing deficits are not really associated with math. So what happens now is if you basically are looking at core subs, you have to have a good documentation, you can always request them. We had students that said they can't do intermediate and elementary algebra, but they can do statistics, and liberal arts and topics. We started this saying, Okay, we can't do that. How would you like to jump up and go to the next course, which doesn't really have that much algebra in it. And most of the students said, Yeah. And I did what we call a chi square analysis on that, compared to those students to other students in the classroom. And they passed this as often as other students. So you know, that works. Yeah, we know that works. In fact, it also works when we get into CO requisite designs and other college areas like California and Texas where they don't make them take developmental during they can take a placement test in California, and basically they can go right into some of these courses. So that's pretty neat. But when we when you get there, what you want to look at too is whether the testing accommodations and the standard testing accommodations or an extended test time, private test area or a group of private area As most of times they'll give you a formula sheet and, and kind of let you work at your own pace. They really don't stop you. So those those common ones, now we got some more extensive ones. And those are offered at some universities, test over two days, where I'm not gonna give you the full test. I'm gonna give you half a test one day how to test and next, I have people who actually are scribes that are writing down the answers, because I got proofreader in there reading back with down just like your student you were talking about? Yeah, so they said, Exactly. Oh, it's 45, not 54. Let's see what you wrote down. Okay, but correct that one. They had people do it on chalkboards and take pictures and sent those pictures in as work.

Mickie  25:49  
That's a really good ideas. Because doing it at the chalkboard standing, there's something about that, that just increases your ability to figure out what's going on looking at the big picture, you can step back and look at it holistically makes a big difference.

Paul  26:03  
You're totally right. And also what happens from a psychological point of view, how do they learn it? The instructors of the chalkboard? Yeah, so that is another one that we've used to some broader ones is manipulatives taught students with manipulatives got a Malisa, one layer higher and math, and I gave him on the test. And then I got some flack for why you're doing that on the test. That's I said, Well, look, I either give them to them, or they make them up themselves. And they go, What do you mean, I can just take pieces of paper, tear it up?

Mickie  26:33  
Yes. Right? That's right. And then make

Paul  26:37  
A's, you know, x's and z's, and the numbers and put her on the desk as a formula, and then start taking them away. Now, some of you don't understand what I'm saying is called, like hands on equations, like a balance being type of thing. But we have done that. Another one is to problems per page. I mean, big Yes, what's your boss, so it's not crowded. And actually, you've done it with big graph paper. So the columns, if you're dyslexic, that sort of

Mickie  27:07  
thing, right? Keeping things in a row. That was definitely one of the things that I used to have to show with students in algebra was to do the inverted triangle with all the equal signs in the center, so that you start off with a larger problem. And each step, it narrows down and down and down and down, till you get X equals blank. And so you're using an inverted triangle to lay it all out visually. So they can see what they're doing, not necessarily drawing the triangle lines, but seeing that inverted triangle as they work. Right. It does help. Yeah.

Paul  27:42  
Also, one more trick I did is I divided the paper up where we have the equation on one side and all the calculations of solving the equation than the other. Okay, and I keep them separate. Yeah, because a lot of my students this mixed them up. Yeah.

Mickie  27:57  
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So that's so neat, you need that whitespace, you need that space, when you're doing problems to keep all the extra junk from running together.

Paul  28:06  
That is true. So what we're looking at now is, if I had a formula to be successful, is having your student learn to study skills ahead of time, because that that compensates in another technique. We didn't study skills, as we call memory data dump. Yes, have a student practice writing down everything they want to write down when they get on the test, I mean, memorize all the equations. Now sometimes they already get full sheets, Cetera, cetera, but they won't get everything. As soon as you say go, they just turn the paper over and start writing down all this information.

Mickie  28:41  
Yeah, really, exactly. So they can, they've got time to do that. I used to tell the students, if you're going to do a data dump, do that let the teacher know or whoever the test monitor person is. So they don't assume that you brought something in with you explain to them that you're going to, as soon as you get the test, you're going to look at it. And you're going to try and dump that stuff out of your brain onto the paper so that you can then refer back to it when you need it. And I think data dumps are very, very effective. But you don't want the student to get accused of bringing something in.

Paul  29:12  
Right, I usually say when we do in virtual is wave the white piece of paper up

Mickie  29:17  
like a flat, there you go. That's a good idea

Paul  29:21  
to do it. So I'm showing you I don't have anything and you tell you tell them ahead of time. So if we're looking at this, we try to use all the combinations as possible to get through that. And I mean, taking pictures of the board while they're doing it, recording it going back over your notes. Educational accommodations are getting more and more extensive. It's it's basically sauna sets, which are pins that automatically write and translate to the computer. Oh, yes. And all this and apps, teach them how to use apps. Not that you can use them on the test, but you can use them to check your work. So you've read all the accommodations is down, then I separate educational educational this before you take the test, and then the testing accommodations. And of course, you want to practice on a fake test before you do the real one main is you want to figure out what you don't know before the test, not during the test and the structures, have them and process it. So in summary, what we're looking at is trying your best effort forward. And if you can't pass the math course, and there's nothing else you can request the core substitution. Of course, like I said earlier, you're gonna request it, Senator admitted, but you need the documentation. And what we did is, like I said, an ANOVA repeating myself, we just jumped to a higher level math class, which is now the norm in almost every state. So what we look at as far as core substitutions that the two main groups get him or your groups was SLD, and traumatic brain injuries, because I had vests that came back the area of the brain that was damaged was the fluid reasoning area. It's not coming back. I'm not saying other disability groups, ADHD, because the comorbidity and then the intellectual disabilities, which we'll be talking about later on, it's a whole new frontier.

Mickie  31:13  
Sure, sure. Thank you very much, Paul, this was very clear and very insightful. And I think it's going to benefit a whole lot of parents and teachers, because the educators are not really versed in the finer points of disabilities that we discussed here. So I know this is going to be an incredible value to parents and teachers. When we come back again, we will do a podcast on math in autism and math and intellectual disabilities.

Paul  31:42  
Yeah. And we'll also do one on ADHD and ADHD. Yes,

Mickie  31:46  
yes, thank you for what resources are available to parents and teachers. I've

Paul  31:51  
added revised my math in disability handbook, mathematics and disability handbook, a guide for helping students with SLD, ADHD, TBI PTS as autism, language impairments. It's an ebook, every chapter is on disability. So I pretty much guarantee you if you get this, if you're a parent, and you read it, and if your student has LD, or SLD, you'll know more probably than the disability coordinator. Okay, because I actually sell these to them too. And actually, this book also has the latest Office of Civil Rights Cases. So it's not just me saying it,

Mickie  32:30  
you know, and that's very important for parents to understand, right? They do have recourse, they do have a steps that can be taken, when things are not going according to plan.

Paul  32:41  
Yeah. And if that happens, try to work it out within the college and university first. Do you have to? No, you don't. But my advice is, you should try to work it out first with them.

Mickie  32:52  
It really does simplify things, if you can work it out with the college does put you give me the title. Again,

Paul  32:58  
it's mathematics and disability handbook.

Mickie  33:01  
It definitely is a resource that is incredibly valuable to both parents and educators just like today's podcast filled with information that the average person is unaware of. And that's what is so very important about it in about your work. So thank you for that. You're welcome. Anything more you want to add before we close up

Paul  33:22  
this, this Be proud of your your students, alias children, help them as best you can. You are going to be an advocate because you already are. And we may want to read up on the rules on the differences between the high school and college. And I think you have a podcast on that one.

Mickie  33:41  
Yes, we did that one last time. Be informed.

Mickie  33:44  
So you know, you're right informed.

Mickie  33:46  
Yeah. I look forward to talking to you again, Paul, thank you very much. Really appreciate your time today. Oh, by the way. Thank you for joining me today. All of the links that the doctor Nolting shared today, including Dr. moldings, math and disabilities handbook will be in the podcast show notes for you to access. I will also include his email in the show notes. And I'm going to add a link specific to this podcast. So that if you want to share just as one episode with any other family and friends, and people who need to know, you'll be able to just get the link to share this one episode very easily. Also look for some of my future topics with Dr. Nolting. And some of his colleagues who have co authored the handbook with him. We will be talking in the future about ADHD and math and autism with math and language impairments with students with intellectual disabilities and math. So there are some good topics coming down the road. Also that deal with very specific disabilities and how they are impacting math and how math is impacted by the Disability and don't hesitate.

Mickie  35:00  
to reach out to Dr. Nolting. With your specific questions, he welcomes the conversation. If you have any questions, please reach out to me. My email is mickieteachers@gmail.com, M I C K I E teachers@gmail.com. And also you should check my website out mickieteaches.com, where I have a lot of information about different resources and things related to college and disabilities. Thank you for joining me today. I hope you got a lot of value out of it. I know I did. And I look forward to talking to you again. In the meantime, have a great rest of the day, and we'll talk again soon bye. The information contained throughout this podcast has been gleaned from my own personal experiences, but to ensure accuracy, please contact the Disability Services at the college of your choice to have firsthand information and the most up-to-date policies and procedures followed for your particular institution of higher education. The content in any of these podcasts is not intended as a substitute for information from legal, educational or medical professionals. Always seek the advice of your attorney or qualified health care provider with any questions you may have with regards to illegal educational or medical concerns.

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