#45 College & Autism 102: Finding Your Path with Charlie Kirkham

Are you a parent with a teen who has autism who wants to go to college?  Charlie Kirkham is sharing his experiences as a college student with autism as he talks about navigating his opportunities, talking to professors, broadening his perspective, handling disappointment and using kindness towards his fellow students. His profound insights will help reassure other teens and  young adults with autism that college can be a positive experience.

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Charlie  0:00  
I think a lot of people really underestimate how many people share their problems, a nd how many people in the same class as you are sharing your problems. 

Mickie  0:11  
Do you have a teen who has autism and is thinking about going to college? Are you concerned about what you might expect at college, and what your child may experience in the college environment, which is so very, very different from the high school environment. If these issues have been on your mind lately, hang around and listen to Charlie Kirkham. He is my special guest today, and he has so graciously offered to share his own personal experiences with autism and heading to college and some of the struggles that he's faced and some of the ways that he's met and handled those struggles and the ways that he's seen improvement in his life as a college student. So welcome to Episode 45, College and Autism 102: Finding Your Path, with Charlie Kirkham on college disabilities and success by Mickie Hayes. My opinions in this podcast are my own, but please reach out to your college physicians or legal services for any additional information.

Mickie  1:24  
Hi, Charlie!

Charlie  1:25  
Hi Mickie.

Mickie  1:26  
I'm so pleased that you decided to join us today. You have a lot to share about your time as a college student and what you have experienced that can help other students with autism. So I'm really looking forward to our conversation today. Tell me a little bit about yourself.

Charlie  1:40  
My name is Charlie Kirk ham, and I'm a sophomore at Metropolitan State University of Denver and Colorado.

Mickie  1:48  
Now, when you and I spoke earlier, you had talked about the importance of navigating the opportunities that you sometimes find in front of you while you're at college. Could you tell us a little bit more about what that means and why that's an important thing that any college students should be aware of, but in particular, a college student who has autism?

Charlie  2:08  
As a college student, there's kind of an ideal that people talk about, as you know, you take your classes and they tell you which other classes to take ,and you have expectations that go along with that. And I found that many other people on the spectrum tend to focus on specific things and lose sight of the larger picture as as they go along through their life. And that's something that for me is been something that I've had to learn to do, is broaden my perspective and embrace opportunities as they come along. So for example, I went to Costa Rica as part of a Tropical Field biology trip.

Mickie  2:51  
And wow, that's, that's gotta be exciting. Wow.

Charlie  2:55  
Yeah, it was a formative experience. I really grew from that. And the story of how to how I got there involved a lot of serendipity and being open to possibilities that I didn't otherwise think about. I was handing in an assignment and my Biology 2 professor was talking with another student, and she said, "Oh, Charlie, you'll you'll find this interesting". And she told me about this field biology trips she organizes every year with another professor. And she said that if I applied, if I sent her an email in August, the following fall, that she would send me an application and would consider me for the trip. And so I took my classes in the spring, I passed my classes there, and I sent her an email that August, like, in just as someone on the autism spectrum, I, I actually put a date on my calendar and sent it like, at the hour that I thought she wanted me to send it at. But she said, okay, okay, I've worked on the application. And she sent me the application a week later. I filled out the application, I got the money orders for that. And I, when I turned in the application actually ran into her, and she was very kind of expectation deflating, where she was like, well, you know, there's, there's seniors that need to be in the class, and there's all this stuff. And so she didn't say it explicitly, but I got the feeling that she was saying, you know, don't get your hopes up. So I didn't think I would get in and then I got in, and I spent the next part of the semester preparing for the class, and I went to Costa Rica, and I got, you know, several hundred pictures of wildlife and very beautiful things. And I learned about a country that wasn't my own. And I was very impressed with the people there. All the places there had murals of wildlife. They're very proud of their ecosystems and rainforest and dry forest habitats, and I was just kind of profoundly moved by that experience. And none of it would have been possible if I had held on to what I previously had an idea about when it came to my college education. I think learning to broaden your perspective in that way, especially as someone on the autism spectrum, is a challenge, but something that is, is very necessary. And it's, you know, you find a way to stretch yourself, and

Mickie  5:49  
You allow yourself to be open to opportunities that suddenly appear in front of you.

Charlie  5:54  
And realize them for what they are, as opportunities, and not distractions, or something not interesting, or something to be afraid of. 

Charlie  6:04  
Very good. And that's, that's amazing. I mean, that's, that's such a, that's an incredible opportunity that you had, and you're right to be able to see it for an opportunity and not a problem or a limitation, or something to be afraid of. So very good. Very good. Go ahead.

Unknown Speaker  6:22  
And I'd add that that general policy of being open to opportunities is continuing to serve me well. I have this semester taken chemistry. And it's a very challenging class, there's a number of difficulties that are associated with it. But I went to a study group, and the Metropolitan State University of Denver's a commuter campus, and it's very difficult to kind of get friendships or establish relationships there. But I attended these supplemental instruction sessions for the class because I wanted to make sure that I was understanding the material and had people that would help me work on it with and you know, not only have I been able to get help with my class, but I've made a good friend is who will be taking microbiology and Chemistry 2 next semester with me. And then beyond the supplemental instruction sessions, which had been very fulfilling and meaningful, I've reached out to professors that I will be taking classes with next semester and have established a rapport with them serendipitously, but also consciously is something I pursued as a goal. And I feel very good about next semester. I think I'm well placed to do well in those classes. Good good is because of being open to opportunities and having a broader perspective about my education.

Mickie  7:55  
Oh, wonderful. And you're absolutely right, and reaching out to your professors too, get to know the professors and individuals can usually get a sense of when they talk to a professor, if this is a professor that's really going to support them and understand their needs and, and be a help and be be a support. And you can usually tell if there's going to be conflict.

Charlie  8:20  
Well, I think I have some ability to do that. It's still kind of challenging for me, just reading social cues. One of my professors this semester was, was initially someone I viewed positively, but as the semester went on, I didn't I don't think that prediction was borne out. But now that does, absolutely. That doesn't mean that, you know, I am resentful, or, or spiteful. I think that I have, I guess the other component of being a college student or trying to make your way in the world, as someone on the autism spectrum is, is incorporating kindness into the way you treat people and realizing that, you know, relationships can be more than the sum of their parts and that if you have a policy of, you know, benefiting others and not harming them, and you know, trying to establish something meaningful, you you not only gain opportunities that you wouldn't ordinarily have, but because people want to invest in someone that's kind to them..

Mickie  9:31  
You're absolutely right. 

Charlie  9:32  
You have a experience that that is unique and you know, sometimes it doesn't work out, but oftentimes you find things out about people that are very beautiful and something that I think if you kind of embody that ethic, people feel a sense of relief that they can talk to you and it doesn't harm them and it's it's something that's okay. For them to be vulnerable in. Before I was in college, I went through a period of not having friendships and meaningful relationships. And the pain of that was just very, very profound. And I would say that coming into college and embodying that ethic, is because it's something that resonated with me on a personal level, and having it roll into the kinds of interactions that I have these days, is just really joyful. And that's wonderful. Yeah, it's, it's, I don't know, I like on the one hand, it's, it's very joyful, and on the other hand, it's very shocking because people invest in you, and it doesn't feel like you've, you've put all that much work into it. And so like it, what comes back on you, for what you put in is, is just, I mean, like, for lack of a better word, beautiful. 

Mickie  11:02  
Well, and it's because you're treating that person with kindness to begin with, and empathy towards the other person. And I think that's, that's a very important skill that I think that many students, once they transition out of high school into college can begin to cultivate when they're in that environment. You know, I once maintained that college is the great equalizer because when you get into college, people don't know your background. They only know what you tell them. And you're all sort of starting out on the same playing field, so to speak. Because everybody's a stranger, in most cases. And so treating somebody with the kindness, like you're talking about means a lot to people, it really does. Like that was a very good perspective.

Charlie  11:50  
I think it's, it's, I don't know, I get the impression that it's also counterintuitive. We, you know, go through life and run into people that aren't good, or aren't attentive to the vulnerability that you show towards them. And sure, can often feel very scary to put yourself out there in a way that leaves you in a way undefended. But I think for the most part, like if people are in college, and I've found that that it does, it's something that is it is rare, and something that is appreciated, by and large, by most people who pay attention to those things. And I think the other thing to realize is that people that don't reward that are not people you really need in your life. That's right. That's right. So just navigating that the counterintuitive nature of just being vulnerable and authentic and kind is, is it scary on the one hand, but also, you know, you learn things about people that that are surprising and wonderful. And so it's just fulfilling. 

Mickie  13:01  
It's led to a really good opportunity for you with your study groups, too, hasn't it? It helps academically for you as well.

Charlie  13:09  
Yeah, I've learned over time that, you know, I think people have this idea that people on the autism spectrum are introverts, or that they're shy about or they feel drained by social interactions. But I think I might be unique. Or I think, you know, if you've met one person with autism, you've met one person with autism turn, and for me, like, I learned when I get to help other people understand something, when I get to explain something to someone else, when, like, my learning is validated. And so I've learned that I'm kind of a Social Learner. And the circumstance that I've sort of created for myself is, you know, barring any kind of unforeseen misfortune, really going to serve me well in the future. And I'm really excited about the next part of my education. And this comes off of a year of not being in school because of the pandemic and being isolated and feeling echoes of, of times when I haven't had substantial relationships in my life. So I didn't really know how being back on campus would feel or turn out. But again, it's it's on it's very joyful, but also very shocking. It's, it's just Yes, yeah, I see what I've made for myself. And, you know, on the one hand, feel lucky but on the other hand, I feel very validated.

Mickie  14:49  
Absolutely. What Where are you at in college? What level are you at right now?

Charlie  14:53  
Right now? I'm a sophomore like I'm just this close to being a junior. I've been working I'm being a junior for like, because of the pandemic, like two years now. And I think I'll be a junior next semester. And if not, it'll be in the fall, definitely. So 

Mickie  15:14  
What's your major? 

Charlie  15:15  
Oh, yeah, I'm a biology major and a philosophy minor, which is, I don't know, I get a little grin on my face when I tell people I'm a philosophy minor, because, you know, science and philosophy are famously antagonistic or at least in in contemporary life. But I've been studying philosophy for eight years. And like, if, wow, no, me, that's actually a small amount of time, compared to the amount of time I've studied science. So, but those are, those are my main interests as as a college student, I love science. And I found out while being away from college in my early 20s, that I have a special talent for biology. And that that was from participating in the International Genetically Engineered Machines Competition. And I guess, like, apart from college, I think a good life skill is that, you know, opportunity seeking mindset. But again, it's something I had to cultivate and.. but, yeah, biology is something that I just I find extremely beautiful.  I love the way things evolve in the course of history of life on Earth. How you can infer things based on comparison and historical knowledge. So like, you can infer that something had a common ancestor if they have similar physiological feature that has drive characteristics, and I find that is very satisfying to think about in my head when I'm not doing anything. Interesting, interesting. And philosophy is something well, I guess, philosophy is something that humbles me, and makes me realize how little I actually know, and in spite of you know, how much I've studied and tried to learn every day, philosophy is something that continues to challenge me. And so, you know, science and philosophy together seemed like a good fit.

Mickie  17:42  
Interesting mix. It's an interesting mix. What is your employment goal with the biology? Or the sciences? Or the where are you? So are you looking into research? 

Charlie  17:54  
I would, I would love to do research, I would really, if I can't do research in academia, then maybe an industry, but I have a particular goal and research to study and manipulate microbial ecosystems using the tools of synthetic biology. And that's, that's kind of complicated. And I can kind of describe that, but I know, you know, we have a limited amount of time to record, so I can just leave people to kind of look that up.

Mickie  18:24  
I was just gonna say, we'll leave them with the mystery they can solve, but I actually understood what you were saying. So I'm proud of me for that. We have a few more minutes. Are there any thoughts that you want to share with up-and-coming college students or college students who might be hitting a couple of walls and not knowing what to do? Dou have any thoughts or any advice or wisdom that you would like to share?

Charlie  18:48  
I think a lot of people really underestimate how many people share their problems. And how many people in the same class as you are sharing your problems. Because the chemistry in college is very difficult and challenging. And this semester has been especially challenging because the lecture is about a month behind the lab. So every week for the pre-lab, I've had to sort of teach myself chemistry and for a bit of time, I was just kind of up to my eyes in trying to stay afloat in the class. And as the study sessions with my group became more intimate and more comprehensive, we all sort of realized that we were in the same boat. And yeah, as much as as much as it's hard to solve that problem of of staying afloat in a college class that is not ideal. Just knowing that you're not the only one is profoundly helpful because you realize, you all have the same problem. So whatever solutions anybody comes up with, can be shared instantly. And if you have a bunch of people in the same boat can all kind of paddle together and get to where you need to go because you have a bunch of brains working on it rather than just one. So like, I really encourage people to interact with their classmates. And I know that's hard, especially for people on the autism spectrum. And just be kind, be vulnerable, be authentic, be who you are, know what that is. And people will respond to it in a way that allows you to take advantage of teamwork, and take advantage of the wisdom of the crowd. And you'll get to where you need to go by realizing that you're not alone. So and the other thing is that you're not always going to be successful in the way you would like. And as much as we want to be perfectionists, and as much as we want to do the best, or be the best, it's more important to get through the class and not be concerned with perfection than it is to feel defeated when you don't measure up to yourself. So let let your standards lower a bit and push through with the help of others. And you'll make it. It's it's not it's not impossible, and and other people or other people have had the same problems that you have, and you'll make it through because others people have done it. And if they can, you can. 

Mickie  21:53  
You're absolutely right. That's very true. That's very good advice. You are wise beyond your years. Thank you, Charlie, this has been just a tremendous, tremendous conversation. And I am very, very grateful that you were willing to share your story and share your experiences, because I worked in the college environments, supporting students for 15 years at the community college, and another five years at the university. And I know the reality of kids when they struggle, but the advice that you're giving, and the wisdom you're giving, about talking to others and being willing to, to share your story with others and to share your needs with others like that. It makes a big difference to be vulnerable, but yet do do right by yourself. You know, which I think is, is a pretty tremendous philosophy for my philosophy major, minor, is a pretty tremendous philosophy to have. So thank you again, very much, Charlie. It's been a pleasure.

Charlie  22:57  
Yeah, it's, it's this has been good. I really appreciate the opportunity. And I think what you're doing is wonderful. And I hope that the conversation we have is useful to others in the way that conversations that I've had in the past with other people have been useful to me. So thanks again.

Mickie  23:18  
You're very welcome. Bye now.

Charlie  23:20  
See ya.

Mickie  23:23  
I want to take an extra moment to thank Charlie for joining us today, and for sharing his story and his perspective on life as a college student. And if you have any questions or comments that you would like to share with me, send me an email at mickieteaches@gmail.com. That's MICKIEteaches@gmail.com, and I'll be glad to forward the information or the question to Charlie, if you'd like me to ask. In the meantime, if you get a chance, stop by my website, mickieteaches.com, and check out my course there. I will have that course information in the link today. I've developed a course specifically for parents of students with disabilities who are transitioning out from high school into college. And if you're in a situation where you don't quite know what to expect, what kinds of changes what kinds of rule changes, protocols, differences, life differences in college versus high school, stop by and take a look at that course. I have a Black Friday sale going on right now for 25% off and so it makes it only about $20. So if you're interested, please feel free to check it out on my website. It will be on sale until the end of November. My goal was to help as many people as possible transition from high school into college and smooth out that path as much as I could. Also if you get a chance stop by Charlie's website. It's all about his photography. So have a look at his website as well. All of the links I mentioned today will be in the show notes. Thank you again for joining me today. I felt extremely honored that Charlie was willing to share his story with us today. And I very much appreciate the time he took with me to do this. So Charlie, thanks for joining us today, and I look forward to hearing that you're having a great year. In the meantime, have a great rest of the day, and I'll talk to you again next week. Bye. 

Mickie  25:23  
Information contained throughout this podcast has been gleaned from my own personal experiences, but to ensure accuracy, please contact the Disability Services at the college of your choice to have firsthand information and the most up to date policies and procedures followed for your particular institution of higher education. The content in any of these podcasts is not intended as a substitute for information from legal, educational or medical professionals. Always seek the advice of your attorney or qualified health care provider with any questions you may have with regards to legal, educational, or medical concerns.